In this podcast you’ll discover:
- How artists and promoters can work together for a fairer deal.
- The campaign against musicians having to pay to play.
- What should bands and artists consider when going into a co promotion deal.
- How to value yourself as an artist
- Benefits of The Musicians Union
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Listen to the Podcast:
Brad: I’m here today with two special guests, Dave Webster and Kelly Hood, both from Musician’s Union. Dave is the national organizer of Live Performance. Kelly, who’s based up in Manchester in the U.K., is the national Live Performance official. Thank you for joining me, guys. How are you?
Brad: You guys have been very busy over the last few months or years as the Musician’s Union has always done in terms of standing up for the musician. But there’s a quite a few initiatives that have been created over the last year and are ongoing, one of them being Music Venues Day 2014. Can you tell us a little bit about what that was all about, Dave?
Dave: Sure, Brad. Venues Day wasn’t actually our initiative. It was set up by the Music Venues Trust, which is an organization that came to the fore last year in 2013, actually. But what happened when we started the Live Performance Department in late 2013, Kelly and I sat down.
We had a look at what was out there for venues, independent venues, around the country and how the Musicians Union reacted or interacted with those venues. When talking to our regional colleagues, we generally have always done what we always do, which our members come to us.
They bang on our door. They say they’re not being treated properly as they go about trying to get gigs or they’ve had a difficult experience or a bad experience or let down or not paid or whatever at either certain venues and through certain promoters. That’s all well and good and that’s what we do.
We continue to go knock on the door and represent and help our members to get their money back or whatever it might be. But at the same side, the other side of that coin, is the fact that there’s probably a lot of venues out there and a lot of promoters out there who actually do support musicians and do want to do the right thing and are to be championed.
We haven’t really done that. We got to thinking about how we could really build a network, a community of support network, really. It’s for the Musicians Union, musicians who are members and the venues and promoters who are looking to engage them and employ them on fair terms.
We thought about setting up a Fair Play Venues Guide on the back of our Fair Play Guide, which Kelly’s going to talk a little bit about later. Around about the same time, as we were beginning to do that, two other things happened. One was the Independent Venue Week, which had its first week in January of last year, 2014, with about 90 venues around the country signed up.
We got in touch with Sybil Bell from Independent Venues Week. We joined forces. She supported our initiative. We supported what they were doing. Then, halfway through the year, we met up with Mark Davyd for the Music Venues Trust who was really all about saving venues who are on the threat from the change in the planning laws in 2013 which really did put an onus on venues having to make alterations when either a resident or a property developer moves next door and says, “There’s a noise problem. You’ve got to change it.”
Mark got on board with the Music Venues Trust. Out of that came Music Venues Day, which was last week. It’s Mark’s thing, but we were involved and so is Independent Venue Week along with the South Banks Center.
That was really the first opportunity for 120 odd venue owners around the country, music industry people, to get together in one room and really talk about some of the issues that are affecting them, the difficulties we’ve got with planning laws, the promotion with the agent of change principle which is what we all support—we’d like the government to bring that in—and the difficulties facing musicians as well. That’s what came out of it.
Brad: What did you identify as being some of the key issues that the musicians were facing?
Dave: I think one of the difficulties of the musicians is about them being treated properly at certain venues and being looked after correctly. There were one or two instances where they weren’t, but of course, there’s a lot of venue owners out that day saying, “Yeah, we absolutely support musicians and we do want to treat them fairly and properly.” Health and safety issues are a key thing. Kelly, were there a few other points that you picked up?
Kelly: I think musicians struggle to know how to get gigs and where to meet the kind of people they need to be talking to get gigs and putting tools together and also just knowing what kind of deals they should be signing up to because musicians starting out know that it’s not acceptable to pay to play, but they don’t really know what it is they should asking for and what’s fair to agree to, really.
Brad: This, Kelly, touches on—and you mentioned it before, Dave, as well—the Fair Play Guide, which, Kelly, you had a huge part in putting together. What should acts consider when going into and approaching venues and working on maybe a co-promotion? Is there anything they should be looking out for?
Kelly: Yeah. I think basically they need to think that the process needs to be good for everyone so that the promoter or the venue owner and the artist both need to reach a point where they feel that they’re both getting a fair deal. That means that artists have to do their bit to promote the show, because where a lot of pay-to-play came from was artists say, “Oh, yeah. We can bring down 40, 50 people,” and then turning up for the night with absolutely no one.
Venues and promoters were losing a lot of money, which is why some of them started using pay-to-play tactics. What artists need to do is actually find the deals that work for them. My particular deals where they agreed to sell some of the tickets, they just need to work with the promoter to find out the deal that worked for both of them.
It might be the tickets that the artists sell. They get to keep half of the ticket price or it might be that they get to keep the third. What we don’t like is deals where artists have to sell a certain amount of tickets before they actually receive a share of the revenue. We think that they should receive a share from the very first ticket even if it’s on a sliding scale, right from the first however many tickets they get, 10%, 20%. That goes up the more tickets that they sell.
Dave: As you’re saying, this is very much about new and emerging artists. I mean as artists progress up the scale, they do more, they obviously get more savvy at being able to negotiate these deals. Sooner or later, they’re going to be commanding fees which is the right and proper way. Kelly’s absolutely right. Fair play is a two-way street.
Brad: You’ve got the Fair Play Guide. Does it give them a specific guideline on specific financials maybe involved with specific deals?
Kelly: It doesn’t mention actual financial amount or percentages, because there’s so many variables in each situation depending on the size of the venue, the amount of bands playing, the ticket price. It just advises artists in terms of negotiating and what they can expect.
You can also … It was written with promoters in mind as well. It’s not just for the artists. It’s for artists who actually … You can give it to promoters and say, “Look, let’s work out something based on these common criteria. There’s too many variables for us to actually say this is the amount of money that artists should be getting at this stage.”
Artists really need to know what their performance is worth, if you like. They need to look at each stage that they’re at and understand how many people they might bring to a gig and what that’s worth to a venue or promoter or what it’s worth to them.
It might be that if artists can pack a venue out but they can’t find a promoter to give them a good deal, there might be a new better place to just hire a venue themselves for a high fee. Then they’ve got all the ticket revenues to keep themselves if they do a good job at promoting it. But really, only the artists can actually know what’s best for them at any given stage.
Brad: If you were an act and you’re looking … I mean what we do here at Gigging Success is primarily biased towards cover bands. This Fair Play Guide is very much about that … That covers cover bands as well, does it?
Dave: It can work both ways. I mean the experience I’ve had in working with cover bands is that, generally, they’re an established unit. They go out for fairly significant fees and they’re largely playing at private parties like corporate function market.
Brad: There’s a lot of tributes. I know in the States we have a lot of listeners that are playing the bars and pubs and that type of things. I mean they are doing deals where they’re being asked to bring audience along with them. I suppose, in that sense, it does cross over, doesn’t it?
Kelly: Yeah, definitely. I think we’ve been hearing a lot with tribute acts and covers bands where they can bring quite a good audience. Just like an emerging act, if that can help them to promote the show and they’re bringing a lot of people down to a gig, then they should be fairly remunerated for that.
Dave: I think it’s best to put though, isn’t it? I mean with their covers band or their tribute band, I think the public knows pretty much what they’re going to get. Chances are, they’re going to put their hands in their pockets and pay for tickets.
I think it’s difficult for original artists playing their own material where the public … unless they’re sure that they’re going to go enjoy the music, have a good time, they may be less likely to put their hand in their pocket. That’s, I think, the big difficulty or the big difference, if you like, between those two types of artists or those two types of bands.
Brad: That gets us to the point of valuing yourself as an act, doesn’t it, and how you go about actually doing that. Because if you’re, as any act, and you’re approaching a venue, at what point do you start your negotiation, if you like? Are you guaranteeing that you’ll bring 30 paying punters? That’s just a starting point. How would that play out, if you like, in a real situation?
Dave: That’s always a tricky one, isn’t it? Because if you do turn around to a … As Kelly was saying, if you do turn around to a promoter or a venue and say, “I’m going to bring you 30 or 40 punters down,” and they’re all going to spend well behind the bar, then you’d better be good for your word because that’s going to be … that’s going to count against you.
When you want to go back there and the promoter or the venue says, “When you tell me you’re going to bring 30 or 40 down and you brought 10, why would I book again? I’m going to make a loss.” You need to be honest and upfront about where you are within the trajectory that you’re on. You’ve got to take a negotiating stance that is realistic to that position.
Brad: Which then obviously means that you’ve got to be doing … As an artist, you have to be doing your promotion outside of that gig environment so you can go in there with your value being as high as possible. I suppose you can almost go in there, look, this is how many Facebook likes we’ve got, how many Twitter followers. That’s almost the empirical stats, if you like, that you can show a promoter. Would that be an approach?
Kelly: I think possibly. But I think it’s really hard with social media because people … they can click and say they’re going to an event and anyone can say anything on social media. It doesn’t always translate to actual gig attendance. I think this is where things like ticketing deals work very well because then, if you think you can sell 40 tickets as opposed to just trying to promote, “Oh, we can bring that many people down,” you negotiate a deal where you get a good cut of the tickets.
When you sell them, your success is reflected on the amount of money that you actually take. If you can’t then sell them, then you need to rethink about whether you can actually do the gig, if you’re ready to be doing of that size, because if you can’t get people down to your gig and you don’t know bands, then it’s going to be very hard for a promoter to get people down to your gig.
Brad: You mentioned on your guide about the idea of negotiating. Maybe you couldn’t with some guest list offers and that type of thing. There’s various different approaches out there which you go through in the guide so people should go and definitely check that out. We’ll put some links on the show notes on the website for that as well. Is there anything on that Fair Play Guide that you guys wanted to cover that we might not necessarily have covered?
Dave: I think one of the key things is knowing the difference between what is a gig and what is a showcase, because often, in showcases, you’re invited to perform. That’s a really good opportunity to get in front of the industry to play your wares so to speak. Showcases are a really good platform for bands.
Often, showcases don’t command fees, but because you’re out there playing to a room which is largely made up of industry people, it’s a very good way to get on board. It’s worth looking at showcasing, generally done by invitation. The other thing is just to look at things to avoid, large markups on merchandise. If you’re not getting much of your fee and you’re having to pay say 40% or 20% of the merchandising fee to the venue, you might want to think about that as a negotiating position.
Brad: Okay. Good stuff. Excellent. Another area that you’ve got, another initiative that you guys … I don’t know if this is yours and that is the Work and Not Play initiative supporting fair pay for musicians. We briefly touched on this, but do you want to go in to a little bit more depth about what’s that about?
Kelly: You want me to, Dave? Would you like to?
Dave: Yeah. Kick it off, Kelly.
Kelly: Yeah. It’s a campaign that we started to raise public awareness of events, gigs, and festivals, charity events whereby musicians are often approached and expected to play for free. Often, event organizers will pay everyone else involved in the event, but have this growing expectation musicians should perform for free and be there because they think it’s good exposure for the artist and/or they think musicians enjoy their job. It’s great fun for them. Why wouldn’t they play for free?
We wanted to highlight the damage that this does to the music industry. That’s a good opportunity to start naming and shaming the employees that are getting involved with this and hoping that might then make them stop and rethink what about what they’re doing.
We invited the public to get in touch and to share across social media the “work not play” hash tag and we’ve got a really good response. People now let us know when they’re approached to play an event and there’s no money and the organizers use the same old excuses of why they should do it regardless of lack of payment.
It’s an ongoing campaign and I think a lot of it is based on public awareness because I think audiences, if they knew what went on, I think they’d be quite upset a lot of the time when they pay to go into events. We wanted to let them know what it is that they’re paying for basically.
Dave: We’ve got some successes as well. I mean when people have come to us and said, “Look, there’s an organization that’s asking musicians to play for nothing,” we get in touch with them. We get as much detail as we can and we open a dialogue. In some cases, we’ve been able to turn them around and fees are being then paid to musicians.
In other cases, they’ve been stolidly indignant about paying musicians so they just say they don’t have the money. We put them on the Work Not Play list. We do a bit of naming and shaming. We always tell them we’re going to do that if we’re not able to reach an agreement. It does have some traction. It’s a good thing.
One of the things is the charity. There are going to be heartstrings when they say, “Come on. It’s a charity. We can’t afford to pay you.” But of course, the charity is going to be paying the people who are boarding the stage or providing the toilet or doing the catering or whatever, as Kelly would say.
We’ve got a very clear policy on charity. It’s really that straightforward. It’s up to the musicians to decide for themselves whether they wish to donate to that charity. But that shouldn’t negate them being offered a fee. They should be offered a fee. If they choose to donate either some or all of that fee back to the charity, that’s fine.
But it’s the musician having control over what their income is and how they spend it because it might be they don’t support the charity that they are working for and they’d rather perhaps go on and put some of that money towards a charity of their own choice. They should never have choice taken away from them.
Brad: As a manager of bands that gets approached every couple of days, it is a difficult one, if we said yes to every single charity and we dropped the fee by 60%, 70%, we wouldn’t exist.
Brad: But then, at the same time, there are a series of questions that I go through when I ask the charity what are their plans for the future? Because a lot of the time, the charity will start with quite a small event and it will be their first year. They need to cover their costs at least.
But if they’ve got a plan for the next three or four years, then it might be something that we want to invest in, if you like, and play for a reduced fee with the idea that there’s going to be work in the future. That’s something that I’ve looked as being an approach to charity.
Dave: It’s an interesting approach. I mean I think if you’re going to … based on longevity on working for charity, then there’s a business discussion to be had about what that looks like from now to say three or four years’ time. There needs to be some guarantees from the other side that you’re going to be given the work and only work that comes out of it you’re going to get.
If there’s any board cost rights involved, they’ll say, “We’d like to film it and give it away to everybody who comes,” well, you’re trading with my intellectual rights there. That’s worth something to musicians.
Brad: What are we going to get from that if there’s going to be some filming? I don’t mind them using it as long as we’re going to get value from it. Are we going to be able to get a promo video which we can then use to sell the bands on in the future as well? I think that’s another way.
But one of the things that causes a lot of problems are musicians playing for nothing, whether that be hobby-based musicians or even professionals that are looking to just promote themselves and feel that’s a great platform. Suppose this comes back to the idea of how you value what it is that you do, is that something that you can advise musicians on or artists on how to value themselves? I know you wrote something about that, Dave, in the last Musicians’ Union Journal, didn’t you?
Dave: In terms of the …?
Brad: Well, in terms of asking for money, having the money conversation.
Dave: Yeah. Having the confidence to say, okay, I’m free that day and I’m sure we can do something for you. How much? I think that’s got to be one of the first questions that’s asked. Sometimes, it gets to be overlooked. Are you available? Yes, I am. Would you like to come and work? Yes, I would. Okay, great. Then we’ll talk about it another time.
Actually, no. Before I commit myself to this, I want to know how much I’m going to get paid. I don’t think there’s anything wrong in putting a business hat on as a musician. The more musicians put business hats on when they do these kind of … have these conversations, the better because it puts the person booking in a very clear place. It puts the musician in a very clear place as to what’s expected.
Brad: Again, I suppose this comes to the crux of what we talked about at Gigging Success really is about how you market and sell yourself. When you get that phone call, you’re getting that phone call because people see your value and they understand your value so you’re almost justified to have that conversation early. It’s the second part of the conversation you’re having after “Are you available?” It’s the money one, isn’t it?
Dave: Yeah. I think it’s also an element of education we do here as far as perhaps the public or event planners there are aware that it’s not just about what you’re playing for in the night. It’s about the years of practice, the years of experience, the investment in learning the craft of being a professional musician, the insurance, the maintenance of the instruments, the upkeep of the van, the public liability insurance, the M.U. membership, the public liability that comes with the M.U. membership. But all those things, rehearsing, investment in stage clothes, traveling to and from the gig, all those things are wrapped up in what that fee is all about.
Brad: It’s not just the hour performance on the night, but that’s almost 20% of it, really, isn’t it?
Dave: Right. Exactly. If you take anybody in a highly trained, highly professional scale, the more work they do, the more fees they charge because the more experience they have. That’s perfectly reasonable.
Brad: Yeah, but I suppose it’s about communicating that value and what you just said in terms of, look, we upkeep our gear, we’ve had years of practice, et cetera, et cetera, everything that you’d expect from somebody that’s been experienced and has experience in this particular field.
Brad: It’s the ability to communicate that across, I think, and make sure that that person looking to book you or potentially looking to book you understands that value as well and doesn’t just see for the hour performance on the night and that’s that.
Dave: Absolutely. It’s also about, if you’re putting a wedding party together or a birthday party or a corporate function, it’s all about the professionalism on the night. You’re going to be booking a bunch of guys who are very, very good at doing what they do. They know when to turn up. They know how to be discreet. They know when to get on stage.
They know how to turn up and make that audience get off their chairs and onto the dance floor to give everybody a good night. When everybody goes home at night, who do they thank, the venue owner or the party host or the corporate boss? They say, “Thanks. That was really a great night. What a fantastic band.”
Brad: There’s a stat, the 81% of guests cite the music as being … as having the biggest impact on the event. It seems to be the one that’s negotiated hardest before the event.
Dave: Yeah. That’s the same for originals band who have really worked on their stuff in their rehearsal studio. Then they get out there and they play a venue. There’s 150 or 200 guys out in the dance floor having a great time. Those guys have absolutely worked at producing their songs in the best way.
Kelly: With value as well, I think artists with their negotiating fee, they shouldn’t be too shy about saying what else they can do to the gig as well as explaining why they cost what they do. They can also say, “Look, I’ve got various social media platforms with however many thousands of people. We do our bit to promote the gig and to make it a success.”
Artists should be doing that as well. The successful gig for an artist is a successful gig for promotion and vice versa. The artist should very much get involved with everything they can before the gig to help them with their job.
Brad: Yeah, absolutely. I mean one of the things that … If you think about it from a bar owner or a club owner or a venue owner’s perspective, it is really about the bottom line at the end of the day. Otherwise, they can’t put the next gig on. They have to make money.
It’s always struck me that the … Bands should almost find out if they’ve had a successful gig, find out financially how successful the venue owner found it. That can be something which can be used as a value add when you look to go and try and secure yourselves some gigs in the next venue or the next venue after that. Having that actual evidence, look, this is what it did to the bottom line for this particular venue owner I think is a valuable thing for them to do.
Dave: I think you’re right. I think that there’s a good argument that say that, a bit of aftercare. When you go on from a gig a day or two later, email the person booking. You say, “How was it? How did it go down?” Tell them what a good time you had as well if you had …
Brad: Absolutely. That’s exactly right. I mean we did that with all our clients. We always phone them afterwards to check that they were happy. If they weren’t, can we learn from that? What can we do to help you so the next time it can be better?
Dave: I think one of the difficulties with the young emerging … or new emerging acts on the gig venue scene is things like having reliable sound engineers and making sure there’s a decent sound. They get a decent sound check. I think that’s one of the things that’s quite important to musicians who are on that circuit. The last thing you want is to go on stage and being unsure that the sound engineers totally bought into what you’re doing and what you’re doing it.
Brad: Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Good. Look, just talking in terms of … I know we’ve talked a lot … Obviously, you guys are from the Musicians’ Union in the U.K., but we have some U.S. and other international listeners as well. All of this is relevant, I think. We had conversations not just based around U.K. stuff, but generally stuff which is universal and international really.
But in terms of support that you provide your members for the Musicians’ Union, I imagine a lot of it is similar for the American Federation, but what kind of things … you’ve got insurance, legal assistance, rights protection. What kind of areas would you say your members are finding the most benefit from, if you like, if we narrow that down, because there’s quite a long list of benefits, aren’t there?
Dave: There’s a very long list, actually. It’s so long. I need some of them in front of me to remind me what they all are.
Dave: I mean the first one that a lot of people will say is the public liability insurance. It comes automatically with the membership. It’s worth seven million pounds. It’s an individual insurance. It’s worldwide. It covers you for when you’re performing. It covers you for when you’re teaching. I think that’s a really important thing to have in your back pocket certainly these days as far as your function bands play in, for example, venues, hotels, that kind of thing, more and more.
Then I’ll say, “Have you got public liability insurance now with, say, an eight-piece function band?” If all those eight members and members of the M.U., then there’s 80 million quids worth of public liability behind them. That makes them instantly a far more bookable band than those who are not members of the M.U. who perhaps has booked their public liability on the high streets and has cost them a lot more.
Brad: Yeah. Absolutely. I think this is something that bands should volunteer as early as … volunteer the information that they are covered as early as possible because it almost frames you as being a professional whether you’re fully professional or not. It frames you as being a professional outfit.
Dave: I always think that if you’re going to be a professional musician, joining the M.U., that sends out a very strong message.
Brad: Yeah, absolutely. I entirely agree. What else can people expect?
Dave: It covers insurance as well. We cover that up to 2,000 pounds. Then you can then have a conversation with our insurers about any top up covered because, obviously, some of these … a very valuable Fender strap or their particular violin or cellos is going to be worth more than maybe 2,000 pounds.
But that’s fine. It’s a good start. Then we can work on that. I think one of the key things for us, one of the things that a lot of our offices and officials do around the country is the legal help. It’s getting the gig fee back from members or cancellation fees back for members. We turn over a lot of money in doing the legal work for our members and fighting for them to get their just deserts when they’ve been either let down or canceled.
Kelly: I think as well a lot of people use us as a … to support the business side of the music. A lot of members here just getting in touch … Whenever they’re offered an opportunity they’re not sure about or when they got offered a contract they need to check or they need some help with how to promote, how to get gigs, how to be more of a portfolio musician and taking different bits of work or advise some royalties.
Every member uses us differently. Some just have this peace of mind. Some use our specific services. There are a lot of musicians who just appreciate having the wide range of advice available for our regional and national departments.
Brad: For that legal advice, Kelly, if somebody’s joined up and they have a question, they literally can pick up the phone to you guys and you’ll give them advice there? Is there not this …?
Dave: We can help them out with that. We have a contract advisory service. As far as the detailed legal advice on a contract goes, if they get offered a contract for whatever reason it might be, publishing, management gig, live recording, whatever, overseas, they can send it to us and we can get some first-hand legal advice from music lawyers on that contract. Then we will talk them through that that advice and if possible help negotiate a better deal.
Brad: Great. Fantastic. Okay.
Dave: Yeah. It’s a really good one. That’s about 43 different bits of benefits and membership that are in our handbooks and then other one goes on a more national level. It’s the political lobbying that we do for musicians. One of the things that came out of Venues Day and the agent of change principle for venues is we will be lobbying government and have already lobbied government on a change to the legislation.
We do that on a fairly high level, very high level, with government ministers and politicians in all this, try and get better living conditions, better standards of work for musicians.
Brad: Fantastic. Okay. Well, look …
Dave: Couple of other things. Personal …
Brad: Go for it.
Dave: We can provide that. Benevolent assistance, if you’re out of work because you’re ill or you had accident and you can’t … you’re struggling to pay the bill, we have a benevolent fund, which is modest, I have to say, but we can help. Let’s see. They’re looking at things.
We can also put members in touch with other organizations who have perhaps a slightly more benevolent remits. We have a very wide remit, but there’s some organizations out there, for example, Help Musicians U.K., a great organization doing a lot to help musicians who are struggling through ill health or accident.
Brad: Fantastic. If these organizations, as I mentioned, like the M.U. and Help Musicians, U.K., they exist in other countries as well. Listeners should go and check those out in their individual territories…
Dave: Yes get in touch with your local musicians. One thing, we are a member of the International Federation of Musicians. It is an international network of musicians. Our general sectary is the president. We cover the globe. The really difficult issues facing musicians traveling around the world, for example, flying with instruments is an enormous problem.
Airlines are a alarmed themselves. We try to get some standardization and transparency within the airline passenger charter which we’re doing through the European Union, and trying to get visas to go out and work in U.S. It’s very difficult and costly.
We would advise all our members, if they’re working in the U.S., to get a proper work visa so they don’t fall afoul of the border guards when they’re going out of there. There’s a lot of very difficult issues that we fight on an international level as well alongside other musicians’ unions from around the world.
Brad: Fantastic. Great job. Okay, listen guys. We’ve come to the end. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. It’s been really interesting. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you guys wanted to cover maybe?
Dave: Kelly? Is there anything?
Kelly: Well, we can go on forever, really.
Brad: We could and we’ll do it again.
Dave: There’s one other point for the new member, wherever you’re working, we’re there to help. The other thing is that if you do find yourself working, say for example, in the film industry or the BBC or New West End or in theaters, we have collective bargaining agreements with all of those employers.
Your rights are protected in terms of what get paid and those kinds of things. We have relationships with their employers. We’ve got those agreements in place that protect our members and make sure they get paid properly.
Brad: Great stuff. If people want to get in touch and find M.U., what’s your URL?
Dave: We have a website which is TheMU.org, www.TheMU.org. We’re also on Twitter @WeAreTheMU. Phone anyone at the regional offices. You can join online. That’s the easiest thing to do.
Brad: Okay. Great. Then, the Fair Play Guide is … You can find links to that from the M.U. website, can you?
Kelly: Yes, from the website.
Brad: Great stuff. The Work Not Play has got set for a URL, is that right?
Kelly: It may make this on Twitter, actually, #worknotplaymu.
Brad: Oh, great. Excellent. People can go and find them on there. That’s great. Listen, guys. Kelly, thank you very much. I really appreciate your time. Yeah. Hopefully, we’ll catch up in the next few months to see how these things are getting on, what experiences you’re hearing from all the musicians and see how we go from there.
Dave: Good to talk to you. Thank you.
Brad: All right. Thanks, Kelly. Cheers, Dave. Bye.